Yeah, listen, thanks very much Patty for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

I am too. So let's just dive right in. So you have shared with me that there are five, not one, but five proven strategies to maximize every interaction. Can you share them with my audience? Because we're just going to jump right in

Absolutely. Well, I'll list out the five, and then we can go back through some of them, but sure, the first one is choosing how you turn up. And I'll talk a little bit about that. Choosing how you turn up. The second one is checking your baggage. Three is being present. Four is knowing your own triggers. And five is ask, owning the lasting impression. So they're they're all They're very, very simple, but sometimes kind of overlooked.

Sometimes the most simple ones are the ones that are most overlooked. What you say, oh, 400% absolutely they do go I think that a lot of times, especially the trigger one. I think people don't really get the triggers right, you know? Yeah, so I think that is really important. But once you actually know, I love it, when there's like a framework, right? Here's five, you just have to know those five and that really can actually help. And I think that really, really works. But what strategy if we were going to do it, what would strategy do? Would you recommend if we were going to say, adapting communication styles to resonate with diverse audiences effectively? Because, you know, sometimes we have the most diverse audiences more and more, but really communication style is so important, along with emotional intelligence, but really adapting communication style. So which strategy? Maybe it's one of those five, or maybe you have another strategy. John, do you recommend?

Yeah, well, I think Patty, it all starts with, and I hate to use this because it sounds like a buzzword, but it's not authenticity, because it's been, you know, it's been talked about so much recently. They have turned into a buzzword. It was even the, I think it was Merriam Webster's word of the year at one stage, however, like, let me grab that back from being a buzzword to to what it really is. And I think choosing how you how you show up, and how you turn up every day is so critical. And this isn't something I'm going to take credit for. This was something that from interviewing those people that I gathered along the way, was how you start your day is incredibly important. And unfortunately, today, a lot of us, like our typical a lot of people's typical day starts, wake up, roll over, grab the phone, right? Not even say hi to maybe your your significant other, or whoever happens to be beside you, whatever. No, just grab your phone and immediately, like, either you're on the news or you're on social media. And the problem is, number one, the news is there to provoke you, right? It's not really there to inform you anymore. It's there to provoke you. So you know, it doesn't matter where you are in the political spectrum, it's there to provoke and to get clicks, right? So immediately you if you click on the news, immediately you're in a bit of a vortex in your mind, and in the similar fashion, if you jump on social media, first thing in the morning, Hey, I see an old colleague of mine standing beside his Lamborghini, and I'm like, oh, man, look, he's doing really well, and I'm I'm not doing as well as him. Now, it turns out he's not even his Lamborghini, but at that stage, I don't know that, right? But the thing is, I have now set myself, I've started my day, and I'm in a bad place already because I'm, maybe I'm aggravated by the news, maybe I've got a little bit of jealousy, or where. Ever around the social media, or just feeling dissatisfied, or I'm feeling, you know, not as good or not as worthy, or whatever it is. So as, like I said, it's, this is not a simple or easy thing. It sounds it's simple, but it's not easy, because simple and easy don't equate often. But if you can start looking at, how do you start, especially on a business day, right? If you've got calls ahead of you, have you got marketing things you need to do and you need to talk to people. Ask yourself, how are you starting your day? Are you putting yourself in the best in the best possible position? So perhaps, instead of reaching for your phone, maybe spend a few moments just in gratitude. That's always a good one. Hey, you woke up. That's always a good thing. Now you woke up in a comfortable bed and in a nice accommodation and whatever, and you have a job to go to, hey, gratitude. You'll find yourself in a much better place when you go into your day. But I would say, or you can do meditate or whatever. You can do whatever you want, find your own routine. Maybe it's just sitting in silence, having your coffee without reading anything, but just thinking, but really pay attention to how you start your day, because how you start your day predicts how the rest of your day is going to go, to be honest. And if you start in a distracted place, then you're then all of your communications after that are going to come from a distracted and and a little bit, you know, aggravated point of view,

I agree with you, and I have a hard, fast rule for myself, which is that I never start my day by looking at my email, which I think is what a lot of people do. They grab their phone and they're immediately looking at their email. And my point of view is that my inbox is everybody else's agenda for me, everybody else's agenda for me. I never look at that. I have a process in the morning that I go through of the things that are the most important to me, and only, and only after that do I start worrying about what my inbox says, because I like to start my day working with my favorite client, and the most important client that's me.

Yes, I love that. And the other part I would add to this too is, yeah, I think it's psychology today. I want to know anyway they they had. There's a statistic that 70% and some people put it higher, of your daily self talk is negative, right? And that doesn't matter whether you are, you know, whether, whether you, you know, are struggling in your life with nothing, or whether you're a billionaire, they still, it's, it's the same. You still 70% 80% is negative self talk. So that's another thing. So before you pick up the phone or get on Zoom or however you engage with your with your prospects or with your customers, or whatever is, to consciously kind of catch yourself and say, Okay, I'm away with this negative self talk. I'm going to focus on positivity and I'm not going to use remember, we always say, oh, past this Prolog right? When I'm not going to believe that, because it's often not right. It's like maybe things that happen, things have happened in the past. Maybe I had a negative experience last week when I did a call with somebody, and I'm bringing that with me, I have to consciously say, No, this is a brand new call. This is a new this is a new opportunity. So I'm going to go into it with positivity. And the thing is, at the end of the day, yo Patty, you can tell when somebody's feeling positive or energized, as opposed to the other. And the thing is, and if you say, like, No, I'm okay, I'm going into it, I think I'm okay. Well, guess what, if you're anxious, if there's some physiological reaction if your body is your body's telling you, no, you're not. So get yourself, get yourself and, and I'm not being all foo, foo. About like, oh, power positive thinking. I'm just saying, give yourself the best opportunity by going into every interaction with a clean slate, right? And just being positive and say, this is going to be this is going to be great. Whatever the outcome is, is is going to be a good outcome, and I got to make sure it is, and regardless of whether it may not be the one I want particularly, but I'm going to make sure that something positive comes out of this.

Well, you know, we can control everything that happens to us. What we can control is our reaction to it, right, you know. And what we do, you know, Pinterest, you know, is a social everybody thinks it's a social media platform, but it's really a search engine, right, right? However, I have a secret board on my Pinterest, right? I have a secret board. So instead of doing a vision board, which has been around for a very, very long time, I'm way too busy to cut up magazines and so like I do it on Pinterest, and I do it digitally, and I have an amazing vision board, and I have more than one. I have one vision board for what my goals are, and I have one that are positive, powerful affirmations. And every morning, when I sit down to my desk, I go to that vision board and I actually look at what my goals are, and I actually let that sit with me. Then I actually go to the affirmation one. I actually look through that. And I always, always, always read the affirmation one before I get on any calls, especially if it's a sales call, right, you know? And I want to make sure that I am in the most positive. A good place I'm focused on, you know, what the long term goals are, not what might have annoyed me this morning, you know, when I or whatever and stuff. So I have found that that really works for me to be able to do it. And I know, you know, a lot of people love to actually cut them up and do all that kind of stuff. And I think that's really, really great, too. I just happen to never be able to find anything that says the words that I actually want. So I have found that digital week. I could do that a lot better, but I have to tell you, I find that starting my day by putting all the things that I can going my way because I can't control what's going to happen after that

Yeah, no, I think that's a perfect example. And I know some people are like affirmations, whatever, but I mean, they do work. I know for that they do absolutely work and and I would, I would advise people just give it a go. Here's the great thing about it. It's not going to do you any harm. But I tell you what the other stuff is. So why not just do they even believe in them, or whatever it's a good thing to do, or whatever it takes. Maybe, maybe listen to a song that uplifts you and just remind you of good time. Maybe, maybe call or text somebody who you know, who's always punch you up and say, Hey, listen, I've got this call coming up. I'm kind of nervous about it. I just wanted to reach out and get that person go, Ah, you're going to be great. You're going to do such a simple, simple things like that, to put yourself in the right frame of mind. So, yeah, I love what you're doing. I love the vision board. Yeah, I never really understood Pinterest, to be honest. I was. I used to call it digital quilting.

I actually used to say it was Facebook for weekends. That's what I used to say before. But it is a search engine, so it is very, I totally get it Absolutely. Can you flip the switch a little bit? So sales pop is the top 2% globally. I love that. My podcast is in the one and a half percent. So globally. So I'm almost there.

I'm gonna be following behind you.

So what's your advice for podcasters? So for a second, let's talk about podcasting. So what's your advice for podcasters are trying to find their unique voice in a crowded market. So, you know, I like to say all the time, we are in a very noisy, crowded marketplace. And while I agree with you, authenticity is a buzzword. Is a buzzword for a reason, right? You know, and stuff, though, but really, I feel like finding that unique voice isn't very, very important for me this year, you know, everybody always does at the beginning of the year, what is your Word of the Year? You know? And I always have a word and then a how. And my word this year was discernment, and that how was unapologetically. That was word by word. So I feel like having a unique voice, not being apologetic about it at all, about what my voice is, and stuff it. Those are the things that are going to help you to stand out in a crowded market. It's kind of like what you said earlier, about how the news they just want to, you know, they just want to get you all riled up, and they want to polarize you and and stuff like that. But the fact of the matter is, you have to stand for something like, what is your point of view? So share your point of view. Nobody says you have to be polarizing when you do it, but it just needs to be uniquely yours.

Have to really realize that too. So people who are falling for things like that, and you know, I'm in marketing, and I really hate it when I see other marketing gurus saying that kind of stuff, because I always like to tell my clients, my colleagues, I'm sure this is something you do too. It's like, listen, I can help you shorten your learning curve, for sure, but you still have to do the work. Yeah, you just don't have to do it alone, yeah, and stuff, though, but you do still have to do the work. And I don't care what technology, I am an AI expert, but with that said, None of the technology one thing is going to replace building relationships with people, right? It's just not going to relationship. Marketing is where it's at. And now more than ever, people want that human connection, so I feel like, don't try to shortcut it. That's why, you know how? Like, sometimes people think, Oh, I don't have to do anything. I'll just do paid ads, no. Right? It has to be organic if you want it to be sustainable, yeah, right. So if you're in it for the long haul, and you want it to be sustainable, you need to do it the right way. So I think that being really, really clear and knowing that is really where it's at. So you do a multiple of things, you just have to know that, yes, they're going to take time, but when you do it right, it is sustainable, and I think that's really what's important.

And I think the other thing too, Patty, is to ask yourself the why, because I feel like we do a lot of things today without asking the why first or exploring the why. So I think you got to ask yourself, why do I want to do this? Or why am I doing this? What is the purpose? Do I have a clear purpose? Because if you're just thinking, I'll do podcasting, and it'll generate me loads of leads, because, you know, I'll get, I'll get loads of views online, or I'll get loads of listens and all of that. Well, you know, I'm sorry that's a little bit vague, and it's probably not going to work.

Those are not intentional. Sometimes, in doing it too, there's no intention. But also, I think for what you're saying, sometimes I think it's important, like, what are you not willing to do as well? I think that's really important question, because I know for me there were really, really clear things, like, because I have built my business on relationship marketing, I don't do any paid advertising. Zero. Now, do I think there's anything wrong with that? No, do I think sometimes it's appropriate if they're having a launch, or there's different things, and I help my clients with those things when it's appropriate. But for me, it's not how I built my business. It's not why I have a quarter of a million subscribers to my magazine, and because I have the huge community I have, it's taken me years and years to do it, but I value it and I treat them accordingly, because I'm so thankful i. For the people who have kind of come along the journey with me, right? So you have to ask yourself, what you're not going to do, too, and then you have to kind of take out the noise of what everybody else is saying and just ask yourself, why are you doing it? What are you willing to do, or what are you willing to not do, and be really, really clear on that. And I love that you're touching on that, because I think no, 100% and

I think that was a fantastic add on there about what you're not willing to do, because I think that that is critically important. Like, I decided I wanted my podcast to be clean. I wasn't going to swear on it, and I wasn't going to have guests swear on it, right? Just because I just thought, you know, I want to appeal to the broadest audience. And quite frankly, you know, there's so much, you know, but a lot of people do that. And quite frank, I kind of grinds on me a little bit, but I'm being Irish, that might sound surprising, and I'm just saying part of

Your brand anyway. Yeah, right, you know. I mean, I know sometimes people do it for their brand and stuff like that, and if that is your brand, that's great. Go be on podcasts where that is appropriate. It's not appropriate on me either. So I agree with you, for sure, and stuff, though, but I think again, it's like, what you're saying, Are you being intentional? And, you know, trying to be on 100 podcasts, and you don't even know who the audience is. Are they? They're the right thing. I mean, look, you're a sales and marketing expert, and this is a marketing podcast, so it's appropriate, right? You know, my audience is appropriate. They're looking for the type of things that you're going to share. I mean, you know, it is good for you, good for me and good for my audience, which, of course, is the name of the game about making sure that we serve our audiences, right? So I think that being intentional, but you really can be intentional if you don't know the answers to those questions. So I love that you're mentioning those because you have to ask yourself those things first before you can actually really be intentional, right?

Yeah, no, absolutely. And then I love that you mentioned the the value, you know, valuing your audience, valuing the people who come on your podcast. I think that's also incredibly important, that respect piece, like, if somebody comes on your podcast, you know, make sure that you have good promotion in place for that, that you make it easy for them, like we what we do when somebody comes on our podcast is we provide them with all of the assets that they need to promote it for themselves and that they can customize, and they can do everything. It's all there for them. We let them, you know, we build a profile. We say, Does this include everything you want? We do our best to elevate them and promote them. And I think that's incredibly important as well. And to your point is valuing the audience. It also means that you are your, your discern, your you. I love that word you have, your Word of the Year, discernment, that you're discerning about the people you have on and the things that you do, that you're always looking to bring real value to it, and you're looking to promote the expertise of the other person and bring their ideas out. So I think that's really important too, because

I really love collaboration, too. So I always love having people in my audience ask me, What are these what is it that they want? What are they looking for? And they tell me, and then I go, find it, right? You know? So I really love that. So thinking about content, right? So can you share a few tips for creating valuable we're talking about value, right? Valuable, engaging content that, let's say, Will consistency, balance the quality with quantity when we're creating engaging podcast episodes that are going to keep those listeners coming back? Right? Because it's all about creating that content for them, but we wanted to be engaging and valuable. And I know for me, I am like, but John, I know this happens to you too. Like, we get pitched all the time, right? I mean, I'm sure you get pitched all the time too, and sometimes people will pitch me, and like, when they pitch me, I'm thinking, Did you even like, yeah, never mind listen to my podcast. Did you even read the description of my podcast? Like, what would ever make you think that would be somebody that would be on my podcast? And I'm all about, like, having people, you know, pitch me, somebody that would be a great guest. I'd love that, but, you know, do your due diligence right first. And so for me, when I'm pitching my clients or myself like I always do my due diligence first, and I always have some really great tips. And I love what you said about the assets, because I really do that too. What I am always looking for as a guest, right? Because it's always about being a good guest as well as being a good podcast host, right, you know? And a lot of times the people that come on as guests, they actually have podcasts too, right, you know? And so, you know, that's always a good thing too. But I always feel like I want to be on a podcast, and when it is all and done that, they're like, oh my gosh, Patty, like you gave so much value. You really promoted it like you, you know, I want them to walk away and think, wow, I wish every single guest came on and was as prepared, you know, showed up having value, and then promoted it afterwards. And for me, promotion isn't just the day after the podcast comes out, right?

No, no, no, no. It's, it's absolutely ongoing. And I agree with you and I, and I think just on the last bit on. Advice around podcasting, before talk about content, is, I think, before you start your podcast, even or in conjunction with the you should go on some podcasts, because you learn a lot from being a guest. It really helps you as a as a host, and it's a great way to get some insight and learn a little and then maybe when you start off your podcast, maybe invite somebody on that, you know, but they have good content so that you can kind of ease your way into it, rather than, you know, come on with a stranger. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't interviewed people before. You're not that sure. So, so just do some practical things at the beginning to set yourself up as much as you can, and then on content. I agree with you. I think you also have to be creative, because, as you said, there is so much noise out there, right? And I said to somebody recently, they call me up about something, and I made the comment. I said, if everybody's creating content, then who's actually consuming it? And they were like, Whoa, what have we thought about that? And I said, Are you producing content? They said, Oh yeah, I put out all this stuff. And I said, how much of other people's stuff do you read? And they were like, well, not that much. And I said point and point in case or case in point. So I think quality, as you said, quality is is very important. And I think being a little creative, like you said, I mean, I do mine on Sales and Marketing and Entrepreneurship and stuff like that, leadership, it's all it's all interconnected. But like, a year ago, somebody came to me, as I said, I get around mental health. And I was like, Huh, that's interesting. And then I realized it was, and I looked into a little bit, and then I thought, hang on, mental health and sales people like, that's it's a big thing, right? Because they face a lot of rejection. It's all so I did this series around tying mental health into the workplace and into sales and stuff. So it's an adjacent topic. But actually, when you bring it in and you connect it to what you're doing, it becomes a very robust and it actually did, actually that series did extremely well, and it's does really well. Today, I have a playlist of mental health stuff around, around work, around sales and just in general. But because sometimes we we forget that sales, people, marketers, they're people too, right? Exactly the foremost. So I would say, you know, be creative and put a little bit of thought into it, especially if you want to, if you want to stand out, and I guess, don't be gimmicky, but put some thought into it. And maybe the best place to first start is to say, if I came across this, would it interest me? Would it bring value to me? And if I can't say, yeah, actually, this would well, then don't do it. Then start think again and go back to the drawing board and figure it out. But I know, I believe you can be you can do quality and quantity pretty well if you if you balance it, but if your focus is always on, if your focus is always on, the quality, over time, you get to see the right kind of people. And as you said, the beauty of this, and I'm and probably the same when it happened to you. When we first started the podcast, we used to outreach, and we'd ask people, and we'd track them down, and we'd be all excited when they come. And then it switched. Suddenly it was all coming, inbound podcast, booking agencies, individuals like and today, I'm inundated. To be honest, we're inundated, and cloud, for sure, inundated. However, it allows us to be back to your Word of the Year, and I'm going to steal that one now is discernment. It's always planning back to discernment so you can do quality and quantity, if you make sure that you have some measures to say whether this is going to be quality or not, or whether I'm just throwing out something because I can,

No, I agree with you. Just this morning, I had somebody that had pitched somebody to me, and literally, she pitched me like, six times, like, I have to tell you, I have to give at least say that she's, you know, keeps working it. And finally, I took the time and I wrote back and I said, this is the reason why, because I know for a fact that you have not even looked at my description, because you would automatically know that this was not the right person for me. Yep, now I have relationships with people at booking agencies. They know exactly what I'm looking for, and when they pitch me, like, half their my work is done, they have already done that for me and stuff, and I trust them. We built a trusted relationship, right? You know, and stuff, though. So I just want to say I don't understand why. If that's what somebody does for a living, like, how is that working for them? That's what kind of like, is that working for you? Because I'm mature, what you're pitching me right now is like, something that you think that my audience would really like, and I have to tell you, that's a surefire way to lose listeners. Is to throw people on your podcast just because somebody asked you to when they are not, you know, fit for your audience, right? You know? So it is always about making sure that it's a fit. And it's our job as the podcasters or, you know, publishers of a magazine or your blog or whatever the case may be, it is our job to tie the topic in by doing

our work exactly, exactly kind of like what

you just said about the mental health somebody else might have just said, Oh no, that. Doesn't fit, but you took the time and really thought about it, which I have to say kudos to you for that, John, because really, honestly, you had to really think about it and say, Oh, well, actually. And then, of course, when you interview them, the questions that you asked them were tied into that. So I'm sure your listeners were like, Oh, wow, I never thought of that, which I think is what people really like, and that's what I like. Yeah, I love is when somebody makes me shift my perspective or gives me an insight, and I'm like, wow, I never really thought of that. And you know, you know how like, for a long time, people would say, I would hear this phrase, oh, I want to be in a room, or I want to be interviewed, or whatever the case may be with like minded entrepreneurs. And I said, Yes, I get that. But really, I want to be around diverse minded, yes, diverse minded entrepreneurs. I want somebody who's going to make me go, Oh, wow. I hadn't thought of that. I want to have a guest on that's going to say something that when I get off, I'm going to be like, Man, I want to listen to that again, and I'm going to do a little bit of research on that. Was really phenomenal, because isn't that why we're having guests on

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And getting back to the comment that you made a moment ago about, I'm the same. I've got great we've got great relationships with podcast booking agencies now, who understand, who you know, our audience and the type of people, but the other ones, and there are plenty out there that you know, who inundate us, and it's just like, it's bad marketing, right? They're scattered. They're not target mark. All the things we we know as marketers, you should do is you should say, Okay, this is the right profile of podcasts for this guest, and then market to that podcast, to those pod that podcast profile exactly, rather than, let me just get a list of business podcasts and spam them all right? And unfortunately, that's what's happening and and that's not how anybody who's a delicious

People are paying those booking agencies. That's the scary part. They're actually paying them to do that.

Yeah, absolutely. So I would say before you go on a podcast booking agency, maybe do a little bit of research and see you know what are, what are some of the ones that you know? Look into them and find out what are good ones. Maybe reach out to other podcasters and say, do you work with any podcast agencies? Which are the ones you'd recommend? Because, to be honest, well, that's a

really good tip. Hope everybody wrote that down. See how he said that. He said, check with podcast agencies and see who have they worked with, or other podcasters that, have you worked with them? And find out which ones are good ones. Because I'm sure if you reach out to them and say, Oh, John told me that he's worked with you, you send me really great people. I mean, they are getting paid to pitch you, so they would probably love to have a relationship with somebody. And say, yeah. So that is really, that was really a value add right there. And, like

I said, Because you also need to consider the fact that if you go with a so we say, less than stellar agency, it's going to harm your brand. So remember, it's, don't go into this also from this feeling of like, Oh, I'm small, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm whatever, and I'm going to believe whatever the podcast, no, do your homework, because it'll affect your brand. If they start just scatter gun pitching you to everybody, and you'll just get you'll be pushed aside, and people won't want to come on your podcast, because they'll think, oh, that's that's coming from that annoying agency,

exactly. And there's so many ways to check stuff now, right? You know? So I think that is really important. And I think a lot of what we're talking about here really is credibility and authority, right? Are you an expert, or do you have authority? And really reinforcing that credibility? And I know you talk about that a lot, so yeah, I have actually heard you talk about the non negotiable elements, the non negotiable elements of a professional digital footprint. I have to I love that. You said that there were six critical impressions there are, and I want you to share them with my audience, because if they're

Not, yeah, the first thing is an obvious one, right? You only get one time to create a first impression. You know, we've heard that drill into us since we were little, right? But nowadays, that first impression is often a digital impression. So I'm not telling you anything you don't know already. I'm just reminding you check your digital presence. Have you updated? Have you updated your LinkedIn profile lately? Here's a good tip. Maybe do a search on yourself and see where you show up digitally, because you might have a wonderful LinkedIn profile. You might have great other did. And then maybe you have an Instagram account of you, I don't know, getting drunk and falling off at the front of the boat or something, right? That's completely at odds with your brand, right? So check, check your brand across all social media, because you only get one chance to make a first impression, and the first thing people are going to do, obviously, is search you. So if everything isn't aligned, you're running the risk that they're going to hit on the one digital presence that you don't want them to or do you wish they didn't, that maybe even forgotten exists. So that's the very first thing. Make sure it's credentialing and make sure it portrays you as a qualified and knowledgeable professional, right? So really pay attention to that. This the second piece I always go and this is where. I'm a little different from some people in that I feel like the first time you interact, like when you reach out, right? You try to make connections, whether as a marketer, as a salesperson, whatever is, just be professional in your communication, especially in your initial contacts, right? Be professional in how you speak, professional how you write. Because we were also, we're in this kind of casual culture where people think it's so cash now, and, you know, because we text and we put emojis and we don't put, like, proper words, and people somewhat carry that over, and they think it's okay now to be like, I my mother, God rest her used to say hey is for horses, right? So I can't stand when I get an email that starts with, Hey

Rock Star, yeah. It was sometimes like, oh yeah, exactly

Those things like that. And I'm thinking, like, what's wrong with either just going, Hello John, or Dear John, my goodness, put dear. It's it's still applicable. It's nice. It may be a little bit of a throwback, but you know something, it's nice. And you'll never and here's the thing, anyone listening out there, you will never, I guarantee 100% on this, you will never get dinged for being too professional, but you'll get dinged for being too casual,

For sure. I mean, there's a time and a place for everything, and that is just not it. That was not it. People want to be seeing that you are professional, because you gotta remember some of these people, they may have a podcast, they may have stages, they may do events. If you're not professional in their first interaction with you, that's a communication like it's probably not going to get anywhere else. And I always say, you know, before I ever put anybody on my stage or in my magazine, or any of those things like, those things matter to me, because guess what? Just like when you were in high school, remember when your mom would say to you, oh, if you're on the football team or you're a cheerleader, like you're representing the school, right?

Yeah, and I think that's it. I mean, I think sometimes people forget, I mean, you're representing your organization, or if you're an entrepreneur, you're representing your brand, and maybe you are your brand. So make sure your brand is consistent, right? And like I said, if your brand is a is a serious and, you know, knowledgeable one, and you will get and then you send some your first contact is some very like casual, whatever, that's totally at odds with it. It's people are going to notice that it's going to jar. And the other thing too, and you alluded to this earlier, actually, Patty is like, do some prep. You do some prep before you engage with people. Like, learn about their business. Learn about them. As you said, if it's, if it's podcast, you want to be on their podcast. For goodness sake, listen to their podcast. You know, really, I mean, should be a basic thing, but as we know, that's not always the case. But do your prep work, and I find sometimes today, again, because we're in this shortcut culture, is that people tend to put aside. I often look at sales people and I say, Yeah, I can see you have a lot of meetings on your on your calendar, but where's the prep? Yeah, where's the half hour you put away for PrEP, for that for that meeting, that meeting, that meet, and if somebody's a speaker, it's even more so, right? Even more so absolutely. And so it's like, understand, understand who you're engaging with, understand the business, understand why you're engaging with them, and just do that prep work, because don't come because, literally, I've had, I've had occasions when I've gone on to things and and the first thing somebody has said to me is like, Oh, well, can you, can you just kind of tell me a bit about yourself? I'm going for real. I mean, you didn't even look at my LinkedIn. You look to nothing. I mean, you want me to

Somebody told me the other day that blew me away. They were a podcaster. They were not a brand, brand new podcaster, but they hadn't done a lot of podcasting, and they asked me to be on their podcast, and they didn't ask me for anything. Like, you know, I'm like, they didn't ask me for anything. And I said before I went on, I'm like, Well, do you need anything from me? And they're like, No, I don't even intro. And I'm like, what? They're like, No, I just have you come on and let you introduce yourself. And I'm thinking to myself, whoa. Now that was so telling, right? Because you let somebody introduce themselves, you have no idea what they're gonna say. Never gonna happen on my podcast, right? You know what I mean? Like, why would you do that? Now, I just really feel like it's kind of your audience, like they're showing up for you like they're trusting you to have done the work that

Just comes off as a little bit lazy. I have to say, you know, yeah, yeah. No, I agree with that. I agree with that absolutely. I mean, that's crazy way to do it. So do your like, be proud of what you're doing for goodness sake, and do your preparation work, right? Another one, I think, Patty that is incredibly important is, is empathy, right? And we hear a lot about empathy and all of that, but I don't think sometimes people really understand empathy, and that is like, really kind of whoever you're engaging with, start to put yourself in their shoes and think, like, why are they doing this? What did they want to get out of this? What's important to. Am, you know, and say, Okay, now, how can I make sure that I'm aligned with it, or maybe I'm not, which is even better. Then I can say, Okay, this isn't the right fit, but how can I be aligned with and how can I make this less about me and more about Patty, right? So I'm coming on your podcast. It's down to me to be my best, right? Because you and I need to know you have a podcast you have built up over many years. You're very proud of this. It's been fantastically successful. You're very protective, rightly so, of your audience and that. So I need to respect that and be empathetic towards you, and to make sure that I'm as fully prepared and I'd come with value. And I'm not just using this as a great opportunity. I'm not going, oh, what time is it? Oh, yeah. But John, better jump on this. What am I talking about?

Oh, my goodness, right. Yes. I think I just really believe that every single one of those is so true. And I know you said something earlier, because we keep going back to that buzzword, authentic, such a buzzword. But, and it does play a role, right? There is a role. But also, one of the other roles that I would like to talk about is really storytelling. Yes, right? You know, what role do you think storytelling plays in establishing that you know, that powerful brand that connects with your audience? You know, so whether you're from an entrepreneur to a podcast to a speaker, it doesn't matter what you're doing, what role does storytelling playing? Because I just think more than ever now it is just so important. So we're

100% and I think, well, let's face it, most of us like, I'm Irish, right? We have a very rich storytelling culture, right? That's how our history and all our myths and legends were handed down. And back in the day, you know, the storyteller, the Shannon key, to give it its name in Irish, was considered one of the most important people, right? So poets and storytellers would go from village to town, and they'd be treated like rocks. Today's rock stars when they turned up, and people would hang on every word, and the stories were deep, and they had meaning. And it was bringing also, it was bringing the knowledge of our ancestors through and it's a wonderful thing. And most cultures are, most cultures are like that. You know, it's like the the First Nations in Australia, you know, the native people there. You know, dreaming the world into existence, and then the storytelling handed down. So it's in Asia. Now, storytelling is is really what we relates what we relate to, and that's how we communicate as humans. Let's face it, when you talk to your friends, right? Say you're have a conversation with your friend. What are you doing? 90% of the time, you're telling stories to each other, and that's what's fascinating. And therefore, I think it's absolutely, absolutely critical. And therefore I think you should, you should also not underestimate the stories you have to tell, because this is another, this is another great thing that sometimes I engage with people and they ask me, and they say, Are you John? But I just don't have anything really interesting to say, or I haven't done that much. And I say, Okay, let's step back for a second. Let's just go back in time and it's and if I know them well enough, I'll say, Well, what about when you did this and you came through that and you did that? I said, these are fascinating things. I said, everybody has stories to tell you are where you are today. You have you have traveled some you traveled many different roads to get here. You've had many different experiences along the way. Just take a moment to look back and and think about the things and figure out how you can bring your experiences to bear into an environment like this. And how can you become an authentic storyteller by using your experiences and then align into, I mean, it's so good, don't just turn up with, I mean, I could tell you loads of fascinating stories till the cows come home, but they may be of no value to you, but, you know, make sure that you again. I'm going to go back to discerning. I just love that word. Now. You've got that embedded in my head, my friend, yeah. Thank you. Then, like, figure out which of your, you know, your stories and stuff, which align to it. But, yeah, but I absolutely, I absolutely think that that's how we connect. Because one of the things that we do, Patty, and this is not just for the podcast, but for our other business the CRM business pipeline, is we believe in a win win philosophy, right? We firmly believe in that. We don't believe when we engage with customers, we want to come out with a good deal that everybody's happy with and we want to support them and want everybody to be happy. And we just believe 100% in Win, win. We don't believe in one side wins, the other side loses. Or you go, ah, put one over on you, because we think that's extremely short sighted. So again, I think going into it with get your stories, be empathetic, and then when you do your podcast, and when you do engage with people, or you do your marketing, ask yourself, Is this a win for them as well? Am I setting it up so both sides are gaining from this? It's a win, win. So everybody's going to go away saying, this was a great experience for both of us. I'm so glad we did this.

I love that so much, because I really feel like, you know, like you're a sales. Expert. But like you just said about your CRM, I feel like stories are so important, and I have to tell you, when somebody sends me a newsletter, I love it when I open it up and it starts with a story, right? It starts with a story, and then they tie the story into whatever is their business, or area of expertise. So from both points of view, as a sales expert and as somebody who has a business that is in the CRM business, from both sides that storytelling, I mean, storytelling and sales is really, really important, right? Because what is the cliche that says, facts, tell, story, sell, right? Yeah, which is so important, though, I don't want to hear that. What I want to know is it's not about like. What I always want to say is like, because a lot of times sales people, you know, sales people, they want to tell you, Oh, yeah, I did this, and I did this and I did this. Now, credibility is important, for sure, but the fact of the matter is, when people are hiring you, they're not hiring you for everything you did. What they're hiring you for is, what can you do for me if I hire you, right? Yeah, and stuff there. So when you're telling those stories, that's really a great way to be able to do it. So from both the sales expert side and from somebody from a CRM really, because you're talking about getting people not just to be part of your list, but to stay on your list. Because getting people on your list is the easy part. You know, getting to stay on your list is a little bit harder, right? You know. So when you're thinking about that, what are some tips you might be able to say about storytelling, which I think you already said, one without even realizing it. Well, maybe you didn't realize is when you were saying, make sure that the story is relevant, right?

Yeah. And I think, and I think that is the important part to start with, is to before if you're going to engage with somebody, and let's get back to what we said before, do your research on that person and make sure that, and then maybe, maybe you've had a couple of interactions with them, but maybe gage from those interactions. I mean, we've a lot of AI in our tool now that can give you all of this information so you can be fully prepared when you engage but and you can tell your stories for you. No, they can't. That's the part of the point I make. We look at it. Ai very much as the assistant to get you set up, and for you, the human relationship is the important part. But then you then, as I said, like, make sure that whatever stories or anecdotes or whatever you're going to tell are aligned to that person. So for instance, like, I had this experience one time in a sales situation. This is a good one for you, and it absolutely aligns what you were saying. I was running a company, and one of the sales senior sales people asked me to come on and a sales call with them and their biggest customer at the time like they had a huge deal with a medical devices company, shall remain nameless. Now, the sales call that we went on was for a company that supplied rocks, right as in rocks, as in pebbles, big rocks, small rocks, whatever, huge company. During the sales meeting, the salesperson started telling stories about working with the med device company, and literally, there was like 10 people in the room, and literally one of the prospects suddenly interrupted and said, literally, these words, I'll never forget. Talk about killing something dead, but we sell stones. And literally, basically said, Stop telling us about all your fantastic experiences with the medical device company. We can't relate. It's completely not relevant to what we're talking about. So, so that's the point is, like, make sure your stories are relevant, and people love problem solution stories. So again, don't make it about you. As you said earlier, don't say, I did this and I did that. Say, Oh, I had a customer like you. They're in the same industry, blah, blah, blah, this is the issue they're having. Is this something that resonates with you? And if they say, yeah, they say, Well, let me tell you the story of how they solved and how we work together and all of that. Now I'm engaged because you've checked, you've made sure it's relevant, and now it's something that I'm going to listen

They're leaning in because they're thinking, Oh, you might tell them something that might actually really help them

Exactly because personally, when I when sense people engage with me when they try to sell to me, I want to know what they've done with like people. I don't really care what they've done with people who aren't like me. I want to know what they I want to know if there's something I'm missing, is there a song? Oh, you did that with them. Ooh, never thought about that. So it's so, you know. So storytelling is so, so, so, so powerful and the same in marketing as you know, because a lot of brands, you know, they put all these bumper stickers on their website, you know, about what they are, and they have their vision statement, and they have their, you know, their values, and they have our, oh, we do this and we do that. And I'm more customer centric, which is the one I love, until you call them about something, and then you discover how customer centric they really are.

Everybody be customer centric? I don't even think, yeah. People say, Oh, this is what stands me apart, what differentiates me. I'm like, Really, shouldn't everybody be that?

Yeah, exactly like I said, Until you call them when you have an issue and you discover how customer centric they're not. But I say tell the story about your company. Like, who are your company? Like, what? What principles do you really stand on? Like, forget, values. Put. Principles, where you know what under my what underpins you. Like, for instance, Pat, you might not be aware, but the Austrian School of Economics, right, which is a school of economic thought, and like Bay, you know, underpins our approach to business, underpins our approach to our CRM, and we communicate that, and we talk about that. Sometimes you get to people when it's when it's relevant, but it's part of our story. So like people want to know, as you said, want to know that there's something about you, but something genuine. Not the bumper stickers, please, but something genuine.

Why 100% agree, although you want to know what, don't speak in the story. One time I went on this podcast, this is where experience matters, right? One time I went on this podcast, and the girl says to me, I will never forget it as long as I live. She says to me, with no warning, no warning. She says, So Patty, how would you tell people what you do? And I would like you to tell us in 10 words or less, and you can't use any of your titles, so you can't say marketing, media, money, you can't do that. I want you to tell me in 10 words or less what it is you do without using any of your titles. And it was a live show, lovely. It was a live show. And I was thinking, wow, right, you know? And I was actually kind of amazed. I actually opened my mouth. I told her what I did. I did it in exactly 10 words. Afterwards, I wrote them down. I thought, Man, I need to add those to my bio, because that was like a download from God, that I actually did it. But it was kind of a crazy question to put somebody on the spot and ask them, because people sometimes say that to me, oh, Patty, what are you going to ask me? And I always say, I'm not. Barbara Walters, I'm not trying to scoop you. I'm I'm here to make you look good like you're all in podcast, because I want you, I want to spotlight you and the value that you bring, not like, try to trip you up and stuff. So I think that is kind of funny, but I have to tell you, it's the stories. And I really, I really love that. So John, what would you say? Like, how do you approach like, learning and growth, so you maintain your edge, right? You're a leader in sales and marketing. So how do you like approach that in like a lesson that you've learned that has had a huge impact on you and how you approach your business today

One of the biggest ones is make no assumptions. That's just a good one to always remember for everybody, because we're we, we fall into that habit all the time. So don't assume anything, right? So always check and validate. But I would just say is, is the most important thing that you can do is go back and put yourself in the in, outside of your bubble, and look back in, and then maybe just do a short exercise saying, Okay, if I was to come to me cold right now, or come to my company cold, or whatever, write down the five impressions that it communicates to me like I know this is a difficult exercise, because you might know you know yourself too well, but when you force yourself to step outside for a moment and look as a third party back in and say, what are the impressions that I am getting from this? And then ask yourself, does that align with what I read, the impression I want people to get, or the authentic impression that I really want to put out there? So I think that's you should do that and not just do it once. You should do that consistently, because things change. Here's your thing. You've probably seen this too, Patty. People can lose control of their brand sometimes, because once it's sure, once it's up and running, they just think, Ah, it's taken over, and everything's fine.

They think they control their brand. They don't know all they control is a branding, not their brand. They realize what other people say share about right?

Hills, point of view, isn't that kind of what you want people to say, Oh, tell me more. They're like, so geared guards. Tell me more about that. I I mean, like, from a sales perspective, like, I think that's probably like, the best thing somebody could say to us, right?

Yeah, insatiable curiosity. But you'd be surprised sometimes, like I said, it's, it's not always something that we pay attention to, and we can lose it very easily, because, especially, especially as we get more seasoned in our careers, we can often sort of go, man, kind of know what I'm doing, and all of that you know, until you suddenly discover that, oh, dear, things have changed and I didn't notice that, or things have slipped away. Yeah. So I would say, Oh, just rediscover your curiosity and just be curious. Just be as curious as you can be. And again, as I said from one of my podcast tests, it's a superpower,

and it really, really is. So John, how do you see your work, right, for what you do evolving to meet future challenges in the sales and marketing landscape? So, you know, things change all the time. We get different trends all the time, right? Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But as somebody in sales and marketing, right? You know, things are always evolving. So what's next for you,

I think, is what we talked about at the very beginning or throughout most of this, and I think that is the return to a focus on human relationships and connecting as humans. Because, like I said, we use AI in our and obviously we're a technology company, and we believe in technology, and we use a lot of AI, but we believe first and foremost in human relationships and making the world the other thing too is we believe in the sales people have a role as peacekeepers in this world, because when you are when people and countries are trading together, fairly fair trade. You can't be in conflict. I can't ask you. Say, here I want to sell you this and then, like, lob a bomb onto your house at the same time. It doesn't work, right? For sure, yeah. And I think if there's something the world needs right now, it's, it's it needs sales people, because it they're the tip of the spear in building relationships with people. Win, win. Relationships are coming back to that. But I think it's so incredibly important that we look for that we elevate sales and we elevate marketing people, and we realize that they actually have a really important societal impact in what they're doing. Because we're at the end of the day, we're trying to connect people, right? We're trying to connect people to people to to to solve problems, to make people more successful, to to, you know, to help people and to uncover opportunities. So I think when you switch your mindset and you go, Oh, actually, what I'm doing has a real, as I said, societal impact. And now more than ever, we need that. We need people to start rebuilding human relationships. Don't stop hiding behind technology, you know, stop trying to have these win lose. Like, I'm going to get one over and you because that's obviously the the antidote to long term relationships, for sure. But anyway, like I said, is like, be look for Win Win solutions, and know that your role is an is a really important one. It's not just a paycheck. What you are doing has an impact on the people you're marketing to, the people you're selling to, and beyond that, to the people around them. Because everything we do, you know, goes out like you know, like those slowly, like the pond, when you tow your your pebble in the pond and the rings, it touches places that you're never going to know. So you might as well give it your best shot to do the best you can and to be as authentic as you can, and to and to try and help other people. And here's one last thing, Patty, is enjoy it

Absolutely right.

Why shouldn't sales and marketing be enjoyable? Why shouldn't a sales interaction be enjoyable for both parties. Why shouldn't the marketing engagement be enjoyable for both parties?

I totally agree with you. Like my criteria and everything I do is that it has to bring me joy and feed my soul. That is my guess. Like that doesn't work for me. That is where I'm at. I think,

I think you just summed up in two words what I was rambling on about there.

I love it. This has been such a phenomenal conversation. I have really, really enjoyed it. For those of you that are listening or watching, you will see below that there are all the ways to connect with him. You also see, we put the link to his podcast and the white paper that he said that he was going to give you as a gift, you'll be able to just hit the link below. But with that said, I know if you enjoyed today's episode, and I'm sure you did, you're going to want to connect with John. So John, what's the best way for people to connect with you? How would you like for them to reach out to you?

I mean, LinkedIn is the easiest to be honest, Patty. But I would say one thing is, when you do reach out, if you if you heard me from this podcast, please put that in. Please just don't send a. A connection request, please say I heard you on Patty farmer's podcast that's going to do a number of things. Number one, it's going to tell me that it's not spam, and you're not just trying to pitch me or sell me something I hope. And second of it's going to mean that you you know who I am, and you're doing a genuine outreach, just like what we talked about today. So I would say LinkedIn is probably the best, but please do mention where you heard me

Perfect. So we're going to have all of his links below, so you'll have all of those ways to choose from. I was going to ask him, where on social media does he hang out the most? But he just answers that already with LinkedIn. That's my favorite one as well. So thank you so much for spending this time with me, John. I really, really enjoyed the conversation.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been fantastic. I actually, I've thoroughly enjoyed this.

Oh, that is awesome. And to my audience, thank you so much for spending the time with me today. And if you enjoyed today's episode, and I am sure you did, please like, subscribe and share the podcast on your favorite listening platform. And if you haven't checked out the magazine, marketing, media Money Magazine, please Grab Your Free Copy at m3digitalmag.com, thank you so much. We'll see you next week. You have a phenomenal week. Bye. Now.