Thank you, Patty. I'm glad to be here. And I've been watching you for a while. And I'm excited to be a little sliver of all the things that you do. So I'm looking forward to it.

Oh, thank you so much, Joe. In full disclosure, Joe writes for our magazine, too. So the Marketing Media Money Magazine. And we'll tell you a little later on how to get that if you haven't already. But he is such a expert in this field, that we really want to share him across all my audience. So let's just dive right in. So Joe, one of your core beliefs is until you are okay with selling nothing, you won't sell anything. So can you expand on this philosophy and how it fundamentally changes the salespersons approach? Sure.

I guess what I'm saying you're not doing nothing is based on emotions and emotions are weird and fickle things. It's the emotional sale. And until we're okay with engaging, they're not just the logical sale, we need to have that peace. Emotional sale is where it happens. And you have to be willing to understand the relationship. Motions are weird physicals, we always have to be changing our perspective on what a relationship was, what they want, and why they want it. That is the art of selling nothing, have them say what they want and why they want it. And then we just sell that.

Boy, that is so important. Because I think so many times people in advance, decide what they need. And they think they know better. And that's what they try to sell them. And that doesn't always work. So I think this is a game changer just in that approach. But why do you believe that making the emotional connection during a sale is crucial? And how can salespeople effectively achieve this?

Well, the emotional sale piece is I need them to say what they want and why they want it. And now before I engage, I never speak teach, sell train or coach until I get them emotionally engaged because they're not listening. I look at it if we have two sales or two buckets, a logical bucket and emotional buck, both have to be filled to get the next step. The logical buckets filled with my voice. I'm an expert on on the salesperson, the emotional bucket and here's the key. He is filled with their voice. I need their words to fill up that bucket. I get both buckets filled, we'll get the next step.

I think that's important. How do these emotional connections impact the bottom line?

It kind of goes with the emotional piece. It's, we all sell the same thing. Here's a story. And if it's alright with you, I'm going to use a follow up not a swear word. And I normally don't swear. But if the story works out, well it's happened when I was in college. And this demonstrates a logic an emotional sale, where I was at a convention I sold a semi load full of chicken shit. And it was just the organic certified farmers to sell the convention. And we went there to sell it. We added a little jars there. And someone else crossed the way had done the exact same thing. So there's two of us selling the exact same product. So I went over, watch his pitch and I kind of tied it to where he came up. And I watched it in this guy. He knew his shit. He knew his MP gave value he knew about what could be used as cattle feed supplement all these technical and logical things. He knew it and he could just rattle on and on and on about it. And I'm sitting there thinking holy crap this guy knows a ship and I don't know shit about my ship and I'm looking at a sample something Is this shit the same as my shit? Does it should better to my shit? Does he have good? Should we have bad shit? Thinking all these shitty thoughts? Then watch them do it. And then I came back to our booth. And I'm sitting there thinking, you know, we're in deep shit. And then I see one of the guys who just was pitch coming towards us. And I realized, one I'm in deep shit because I can't compete with that guy. So I realized I cannot really ask him, I can't make that logical sale, I need to just get him talking before he gets me talking. So I just started asking questions. How long have you been farming? How big is your farm? How much is organic? When did you change? What was the best thing? What was the worst thing? I ask question after question, because I didn't know shit about my shit. And I did that as long. You know, it seemed like four days, it was like maybe 20 minutes of questions, which is a huge amount of time. And finally says, Well, I reckon I might not better out to get some, which I think that means you wanted one. And I said, you want a whole load or some idle. And that was what it was. It wasn't our product, we all sell the same shit. It's the relationship because I asked those questions, I established a relationship with them. That was the emotional set. Logically, we all saw the same thing.

That's a great story. And I think it is really important, because I think also when you ask people questions, then that tells him that well, if you listen, you know, sometimes people ask questions, or they just wait for you to pause so they can ask the next question. But I mean, if you actively listen, and they can feel that you are listening to them, then everybody wants to be heard. Not only that, but as somebody who's an expert in marketing, I also feel like if you let them do the talking, whatever it is that they tell you, they'll know you're listening, when you use those same exact words, when you're talking to them later, they actually tell you pretty much how to sell that. But I know that you talk a lot. And I know we've had this conversation before about digging questions, and how they help you fill the emotional bucket. And your story. Pretty much just told that. But what are digging questions? And more importantly, I'm sure my audience wants to know, could you give us some examples of some good digging questions?

Sure. Let me add one point for a do that. I was talking before about both buckets, and the importance of having them filled. I think a lot of times, we all go out into your audience members, they have a great sales meeting a great, great meeting, they're laughing at your jokes or asking questions. And you come back with, Hey, can come back in two weeks, I'm gonna see your proposal we had both buckets filled. We come back two weeks later. And that meetings different. They're cold, their arms are crossed. Well, the thing is, let's talk about the buckets, the logical buckets finite, do you have a bucket full of water, you can't put any more water, you have a client logically sold. You can't sell logic anymore. Emotional bucket, again, filled with their words, as holes on it. When you come back and follow up meetings, we still got to get them reengaged and get them them with their words to fill up their emotional bucket at the second meeting, before we go logical. So I want to put that in context, how we fill up that emotional bucket is done with with the digging questions. And it came with whenever they're talking. I was just thinking, Well, why is that? And the unanswered question. Well, why is that? Well, why is that? Well, why is that? Why is that? You can't ask that? Because that's kind of creepy and weird. But that's all dig in questions. Art is just different ways of asking, why is that? If someone says let's say, I'm a financial advisor, you know, I just want to be comfortable. Okay, well, you want to say why is that? Well, I'd say well, what does that look like? That's a digging question. Example of doing questions how so? Can you say that again? What does that look like? What else? What else is probably the most underused word in sales? And probably the most important, what else? Can you tell me more? Can you say that again? I will ask dig in question after dig and question, because I imagine that's filling up their emotional bucket. That is why they want to work with me. That's why they're going to take the next step. And when I come back to the second meeting, emotional bucket again, has holes in it. I got to retouch on that big piece of the second meeting, I said he had a first meeting, we were talking about this, I've got the logical piece over here, I've got your presentation or your my demo ready, or my proposal. But before I do that, you were talking about how important this is. Tell me more about that. And just be quiet, let them again, refill their emotional bucket. So that makes so much sense. I also can say that again. What else? What does that look like? Tell me more? Just it's different way of saying why is that? Why is that? And why is that?

I think that makes a lot of sense. And then before you're asking those questions, you have to have heard their answer. So to say tell me more or why is that? To know which one of those dig in questions, which I love those to ask make sense, according to what they said. Right? So you are actively listening. And I think it's a skill set that can be learned easily. Right. You know, as long as you understand that you're not just rattling off. Oh, let me ask this one. This one This one, this one, and you actually are listening to the appropriate one, you know for what it is that they're saying. So how would you get the your prospects or whoever you're talking to, to openly share what they want and why they want it. So you do get that like meaningful and effective sales interaction.

I'm very transparent and very simple. Let's say if I was talking to you, and I'll say, hey, Patti, you know, as we go forward, it's our first meeting. One thing I'm do is I'm gonna ask a lot of questions, making sure I'm really crystal clear on what you want. And I'll make sure we know that. Second thing I'm doing that may be a little bit different. I'm gonna ask your questions on why you want it. And some of your answers may be goofy or weird or awkward or are doesn't make sense. But it's important for me, because me hearing you say what you want and why you want it makes a big, big difference on what I'm going to do with you, and want to make sure we're on the same page. But it's important for you to hear yourself, say what you want, why you want it, because it clarifies your thinking, crystallizes what you want. And I want to make sure we're going in the right direction. Is that okay? I've just asked for permission, basically, to make the emotional sale.

And I think that's good, too. Because I think when you tell people up front, that you're going to be asking them questions, but you tell them why. And the why you're asking them, you're letting them know is so that you can better serve them and be able to give them the options that best serve them, then it doesn't seem creepy and or make you think, why are you asking me all these questions? Where sometimes if somebody just started, you know, asking all these questions, it was seemed like an interrogation, or salesy, right, if you'd come across like, Oh, you're just asking me these questions, because pretty soon you're just gonna throw this sales thing at me, and I'd have my guard up. But as soon as you asked me for permission, and then told me why I'm asking you these questions, so that you have clarity, and I have clarity. Thus, this way, if we choose to move forward, you know, I'm helping serve you in the way you want to be served. So I think that is really important. So I love that.

It's a servant selling mentality. Well, that's exactly what

Phil is certain outsell is, you know, the name of the game for me. So I love it, which is why we get along so well. Right? Yep. So, Joe, I know you have your earning, which is a trademark. And I love things that are acronyms some earning Sale system. So can you tell us what each letter stands for? And what are the key components? And most importantly, how does it integrate into the concept of selling? Nothing? I know I asked you a lot there. But I think you got it.

Yeah, like veggies were a real simple question, folks. Versus the meat mentality that whoever is talking is buying in a selling situation. I'm trying to sell you and I'm talking more than you are. I am literally buying your objections to earning system is a way to get them talking. And it meshes in with the dig in questions that go hand in hand that dig and questions can be used on any sales approach. But the earning piece is kind of a battle plan of what the conversations going to look like. We all know your battle plans the night before you're all organized, the battle starts to take the plan, you chuck it out the window, same as a sales call. Ideally, you want to go through in this order. It's an acronym, each letter stands for something we want to touch on. But it's not. So it keeps us on track. The E just stands for evaluate their current reality. That's your data gap. And I think a lot of we do that we're pretty good. And I look at it, if I'm gonna make an apples to apples comparison, I have to ask enough questions and know what type of apples you have. I'm showing you something different apples to oranges, I still need to ask enough questions to know what type of apples are starting. So e is just evaluate their current reality. Like we do that. The A is what are the advantages of what they're doing right now? What's going good, what do they like about their current vendor? And I get pushed back saying, Hey, Joe, I don't like to ask him that question. Because I'm kind of, I'm talking them into steam with their current vendor. And I love asking that question for a couple reasons. One, I do things differently. I get different results. I mean, a differentiates you from all of your clients and what do you like about it? To screams confidence? If I'm asking what do you like about your current vendor? I'm coming from a place of strength where it doesn't bother me. Because this has given the confident people. Third reason, it's the biggest. When I asked what are their advantages, they're literally telling me their hot buttons. Whatever they say they like in the back of my mind, I'm thinking Ding ding ding I got to close on that and whether it's five minutes or five weeks or five months, and I'm not going to know unless they ask that's the E and the A. R is revise what do they want to change? This is the major reason why they're gonna go forward. I don't lead off with it. I don't want to do the you know the will show up throw up I want to ask know what they want to change but I want to know that and I'm of the mindset that as busy as we are nowadays. If I'm talking to somebody they Have a problem either with their sales or their team, otherwise we wouldn't be there. So you're having that conversation? We need to know what they want to change. That's our car. Right? And is No. Who can say no to this? Who else needs to be involved in the decision making process? There are some times I will step away from the presentation if I don't have the right people there. Sometimes you can't you got it professionally and politely. But I really don't want to get in that conversation until I least tried to get everybody there. Because that's er, and I interpret back what they just said. That is a key piece. Yes, for key piece that is one of them that say, Hey, just for clarity, Patti, I'm gonna go through and just kind of repeat back what I hear. Is that, okay, and they'll say, Yeah, and just go on a rant. And that is a great spot to be in, because literally proves that you're listening. biggest complaint in sales is no one listens to it. So by me asking all those questions. I'm just repeating back what they said and their words. And you hear things like, Oh, crap, how will you said it better than I did. And mentally, I'm on their side of the table, and I have not even started selling it.

But not only that, at that point, too. Like, I know, sometimes when I speak out loud, or I hear myself, I'm thinking, No, that's not exactly what I meant. Right? You know, so when you repeat it back to them, it also gives them a moment, to be able to say, Yeah, I know, I said that. And now that I'm thinking about it, I'm hearing you say it. But I also want to do this or to give it helps them to get any more clarity on anything they might want to add or change.

Think how important that is. If they said something in my mind, I'm going to sell that. But if I repeat it back, and they did, what do they click away? Wait, you know, I did say that. But this is what I really meant. I am now selling what they want to buy versus selling something wrong. They don't want to buy a huge piece there. Yes, I agree with that car. And I interpret back second and nothing. What if nothing changes? And I asked that to create a sense of urgency. It just curious if we don't have this piece fix and repeat it back to him? What does it look like next year? And odds are I'm gonna get a fluff answer. It's not really worth anything. Well, what else tell me more about that. I'm gonna create a little uncomfort notice about their problem? Because that's what's gonna get them to go to the next step. If I don't do that, they'll say, Well, we'll look at it next quarter. And then the G is the game, what's the PE value? If we have all these things fixed? We took this piece of work and took it off your desk and clear it up two hours a week. What would you do with those two hours? What would that part look like? If this problem was fixed? What would you allow that you do? have not even started selling yet? And again, in between all of that earning piece? I'm asking dig in question after digging question after digging question.

I love that. And I know that in all the conversations we've had one of the things that you and I are both right on the same page with is mastering referrals. Right, you know, and, you know, both of us really believe that, you know, you really aren't going to get referrals until you build relationships. Right. You know, you have to do it right. You know, that's really the most important part. And I know that you teach that. So what are the key strategies that you teach for mastering referrals? And why are referrals such a powerful tool in sales?

I think we have to look at our thinking first. And again, nothing changes to our thinking. Our thinking on referrals, I think is really backwards. We all know they're important. We've all told her forget them. But we're passive. Referrals are old, by the way. That is a big piece of it with referrals. In my mind, they're more important than the sale. I'll say that again. Referrals are more important than the sale. This stems from years ago when I was selling custom suits at Tom James went and pitched the guy for custom suits. While Hendrickson said no to me, did not buy a suit, but he gave me four referrals because he liked me because of the relationship. 18 months later, I had 80 clients it thrive and financial. There is no way his business could equate to what I gained from that same thing happened to St. Paul companies sent to me I looked on my Conroy sold, Massoud gave me three referrals. Two years later, I had 150 clients at that company had my own ID my parking spot. Referrals are more important than the sale we have to treat them that way. There's nothing passive about referrals. It's not oh, by the way, it is intentional, and it is focused and it is a mini sale. The other part we look at when we started selling all the parts, all the cycles, steps of the sale. We were horrible at all. We were terrible, all of us were but through repetition and experience and really focused we got pretty good at a couple of them. Maybe it's establishing trust, or maybe it's at creating a buying atmosphere or finding a need. But when it comes to referrals 90% of us were still rookies we've never let this one slip Get on par with everything else. That's where the exponential growth comes from.

You know, and one of the things that I think, too is, you know, I come from a networking background, right. And one of the things that has always really, really kind of made me think, why would be when people belong to networking organizations, that just means you both paid, if it's a paid one, to join this networking organization, but nobody should think that just because you paid money to join a networking organization, that you still don't have to earn the referral, that people are just going to refer you business because they're in the same organization as you at people who want to more than one organization. So like, say, you're in the mortgage business, and you belong to four different networking organizations. I'm sure there's a realtor and every one of those networking organizations. And still, you have to build a relationship. So you know, which one is the right Realtor for the referral that you're going to make? And people shouldn't just assume that oh, yeah, I paid, you know, $300 or $500, to join this organization, which means I'm going to be able to sit back do nothing, and everybody's just going to refer business to me, I see this mistake over and over and over again. And I feel like when you're mastering the art of referral, it's also mastering the art of teaching your hardware or strategic partners, how to refer to you as well.

I'd absolutely agree with the networking piece. I've been through commission my entire life. I've never gotten I've never really worked the networking groups just because of what you said. Referrals are given to people that it has to be a relationship. I don't think there's relationships and networking group. You know what you said, People just expect their passive, you know, relationships are given to people. That's how that big focuses. So I actually kind of shy away from I've never gotten much out of it. My business has been up until last year, I've never had any dental website. I didn't do any podcasts like I'm doing now, I didn't have a book didn't do any speaking, I just got referrals to noon for the past 10 years. Because I build relationships with people. And backlash in relation to this, this referral piece. We're rookies, we have to think like rookies, we need to realize we're gonna get bad at it. And we have to get a script, the talking point, all those things involved in sales, it's a sale, but we have to go back real rookie on this park, it's not going to be easy right away, it's gonna be awkward, but we will get better at it.

So I agree with you on that. I think that where we are right now, networking can be an accelerator to that as long as you understand. And don't assume that just because you belong to something your work is done. It is about building relationships. And in all of the networking organizations I belong to the emphasis is on building relationships, or I wouldn't be there. So I think we are learning that more and more and it can, you know, shorten your learning curve. But you still have to work. I mean, it's called networking. It's not net city. It's called networking. Right. But here's the thing. I think one of the points I want to make here, and in this kind of question I'm gonna curveball you right now is that the wear is so important. It's kind of like, so I'm gonna say my point, and I'm gonna bring it over to your earning thing. So sometimes in the networking organizations, or wherever you need people, you know, events or whatever, and you decide that you're going to say, we know I love coffee. So we're just gonna say, we don't have coffee, just because somebody says they're gonna go have coffee with you, you don't get to sit down with them and have a 15 minute cup of coffee, and then think they're going to reshare all these people to you, like they don't really know enough. So you have to build that relationship with them. And it's ongoing, right? It doesn't happen in 15 minutes. Now, going back to what you're saying. One of the things that I think is interesting, and there's always some challenges that people have, you're saying that we can't be passive in referrals and asking for referrals, and how important it is. So going back to the stories that you've just told, where would you say, are the points in there that you should be asking for the referral. So let me give you an example. What I mean, so you're having this conversation, you're making the emotional sale, and then you're getting to the logistics, and then you get them to say yes, you know, they trust you, you know, you've got to them whether that's taking one meeting or two meeting or every time. When do you ask for the referral? Because for me, I'm a speaker and as a speaker, we have a technique that's called seating you know, We know how to seed things throughout our whole presentation, and stuff. So do you see the referrals through the whole thing? But when are you asking for the referral after you close the sale? And they paid you and you close the sale? Which is kinda I think when most people do it like later on, they go back and say, oh, you know, you know, can I have a referral? Where would you say, are some of the best places to ask for the sale? I mean, to ask for the referral? And can you give us an example of how you may ask for it?

Sure. You go back with we talked about the network and think we're saying the same thing. But if you're going to a networking group, and you're looking to get names, get referrals, that's where the mistake is, if you're going to a networking group to get relationships, now they're effective. And that's what I did with steaks rival, looking at the wrong way, I was getting relations with my clients. I just didn't apply that to that networking group. And it probably would work if I did that. I just have not. So I want to make sure we're clear on that. If you go with the right perspective, that the relationships, the referrals will come from there. As far as your question, when is it appropriate to ask for relationships? In both those two little examples, they had not even tried it in my product. One guy said no. One guy bought some custom suits. They weren't even delivered, yet. They he had no idea what I could really do. So I put the emphasis that I crossed the line mentally with them on a relationship, Hey, I like this kid. They see the media, they saw something of themselves in me years ago. This is when I was years old, young, skinny and foolish. So they they saw something they liked, there's a relationships there. So that's where I got them. You don't necessarily need to prove that point. Relationships are given to people, they have to have that part. As far as, do you need to sell the product first? I don't think so. It's whenever you should ask for a referral is when you feel comfortable that relationship, and it's different with everybody. It's not a line in the sand. But mentally, there is a line there. When am I comfortable? When do I feel good about when have I had them? Tell me what they want? And why they want it? When have they felt like they've been heard? That's what I'm comfortable asking for referrals. Sometimes it's how you can get people right away. And they click with you and they hit you need to call so and so we've all had that happen? Well, we've already crossed that line.

So you have these dig in questions. So you have all these little things that I think are really fabulous. Right? And you know, literally, I love your book just because it outlines all these really great things. Not only do I love your book, but I hand your book out to a lot of other people too. But with that said, Can you give us a couple examples of you know, if you want to roleplay it or whatever. I'll give you a couple examples of how you would ask for a referral without coming out and just saying So Joe, you know, now that I've told you all this stuff, like you have anybody you can refer to me not that somebody would actually say that. I think we'll probably have said that.

Oh that's true. Like when it comes to referrals you gave me no. And this is a sale. It's like me showing up for the first time say, hey, I need you need this much term. This one's just willing to cut me a check. Because this isn't done that way we got to create the environment ask for we have to earn the right to ask for the referrals. earn the right to ask for the next step. So let's say I'm talking to you, well, we'll do a live roleplay here. I'll calm and this is just put on a referral roadmap camp for the one of the points we did chatty, just curious last question. Absolutely. Joe was one if you could help me out. We've been working together for now close to a year now. Just wanted to get some feedback on things that you liked about either working with me, or my book, or B work writing on your magazine, or just in general? What do you like about working with me or my staff, or Holly?

I think that the thing that I love the most, Joe, is that you always show up that you're super generous, you always add value. And I love that you are always paying attention how you can serve my people. And it's never about you, and it's always about them.

Cool. What else?

I think the other thing would be that you always remember everything I say and whenever we have the next conversation, I'd love that you listen to me, and that we can continue the conversation not have to start at the beginning every single time. And so I really love that as well.

Cool. So I heard you right? He loved the part that I had value, I pay attention to detail. Very generous, I share what I do, then I remember things when we come back, we don't have to go back over and restart and be asked to come pick up right where you left off. Absolutely. Edie were two people would appreciate those things. Mastery. I know

a lot of people who would probably appreciate those things. That's the ask.

If we haven't really looked at it. When before I ask for referrals. I give you the tell me what do you like working about me, my team, my company, my product, whatever. And I'd write it down because I'm going to repeat it back. But I write it down and even though I asked what else because I wanted to get a little more. And then I just repeat it back say well, we're two people would appreciate those things. That's a simplified referral, it's doesn't get any simpler than that. And it's all relationship based.

I love that. That was really good. So I hope my audience is writing that down. See how simple that was? Because, you know, immediately when somebody says that to you, immediately, in your mind, a couple people's names come to mind, right? You know, immediately you start thinking, well, actually, you know, I should tell, you know, so and so on, I should introduce so and so. Right, you know, and you can make an introduction, and, you know, when you make a referral, sometimes, in my world, I know, you know, like you said, you're not in the networking world as much. But for me, there's a reef, an actual referral, and then there's like an introduction, right. And to me, they're not exactly the same thing in my world, in my brother, not exactly the same thing. And sometimes, I actually really like an introduction, because that's like, the gift that keeps on giving, really, for me, because sometimes people have to know a little bit more in order to make a referral, or else they feel funny about it. They're like, well, you know, I'd love to tell such you know, I don't know if I know, I don't know how to refer you like, what would I say, and, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, back in the old days and a sale, when I remember when people were just like, oh, you put some names down on a form, they would call about a referral, that was a really referral, that was really a lead, right? You know, because you're just really giving them a name. And, you know, it was kind of iffy about whether you were just going to hand people names and phone numbers of your friend, because you didn't know what they were going to say to them. And that was kind of iffy and salesy and ugly. And I don't think anybody does that anymore. Right. But right, if we build a relationship, however, you know, in my world, I would probably already have introduced you to people already. However, if I hadn't thought of it, or we're now in a sales conversation, which is totally different conversation. Based on everything you've just shared so far, it would be very, very easy for me, just because of the experience I've had in just what we've talked about so far in this conversation, to be able to say, you know, maybe I'd even ask a question back and say, Well, you know, what, Joe, I can think of a whole bunch of people that I think I'd want to introduce you to that probably could really use your help. Is there anybody specific you're looking at? Like, I might actually even ask them questions back. But now we're having a conversation about it. But definitely, you're now top of mind? For sure. Right, you know, so I love that. And I think it was very simple. The way you said it. So I think that is really good. So thank you so much for I got to throw that curveball at you and you actually handled it super, super well, Joe, so thank you so much.

He didn't come as not a problem. But the other point, if I asked you that question, and you did not give me enough, if I asked you what do you like working with me? To where I felt comfortable asking for referrals? Well, then I probably shouldn't ask. But it makes me more confident to ask you for it by hearing that piece. So there's another piece that goes on with that. And I do agree we've all done we just give me names and numbers. I want to have why I want to have those reasons why you like work with me. Because that crystallizes who the people I want to work. Now

that makes sense. So how can sales professionals like builds, and more importantly, maintain strong relationships with their clients to ensure long term success? And what role does that emotional connection play? Once they're already your clients to get repeat business? Because, right? Why, you know, it takes a lot more to acquire a new client than it is to build a relationship with the clients you already have.

There's a couple of things with the long term relationships or stickiness of clients. One, I think, is how we bring them on board. Let's just use my coaching. For example, one of my first conversations I'm having with someone, and I'll go through expectations, things and count on me to do things I'd like to be able to count on them to do. And I'm very clear with detailed what those expectations are. And I asked if they want to have any input any changes. That's a great conversation to have. But that's a piece we need to have with our clients and with our team members. So the expectations right up front, then you want to ask another critical question. Let's just see, Patti, you and I had that conversation. We talked about expectations, went through mine, and then I'd like for you because I knew then I asked you a paddy just curious. What should I say? Or what should I do? If you're not doing something you said you were going to do? What should I say? Or what should I do? If you're not doing something you said you could be hypothetically five weeks down the road, five months, five years down the road? What should I say can be quiet and ask what else? Because right then their answer, that they're giving me permission to hold them accountable. That is the retention piece. We need to have that part. So that's one thing that I read recommend.

I actually have a clause that says that in different words in my contracts, yeah.

Then the other part is, I have all my clients I literally say You have my permission to challenge me. This is not a relationship where it's my way or the highway, there's 100 ways to get across town. If I'm saying something you don't agree with, let me know, we'll work around it. But that empowers them to have their thoughts. I don't want to have that conflict. But really, both those things are letting me to be a servant to them. I really focus on what's going on in their lives, not just work related. It's a relationship. That is the sale of long term clients. I've had clients with me for 10 years. It's a relationship, I know what's going on. I know them, there's like, you know, I have someone who cuts my yard or cuts my hair, mows my lawn, I got a car guy. Hello, you're my coach. It's always coming back to that emotional bucket. And I said that earlier, the emotional bucket has holes in it because they change. It's also a thing called trust, that fills up those holes, where you have control over your clients, they'll do whatever you say. And you still gotta even though you have that you still got to go back and check that emotional bucket periodically with your clients.

Well, you know, that's a know like trust factor, which I think is really, really important. And I know that with an old 23 years that I've been in business, only two times in 23 years, have I said to a client, so you know, and they're like, Oh, we're talking about that clause in the contract where I said that I give you permission. I'm like, Yes. And they're like, Okay, I remember now, like, I don't even have to say it. All I got to do all I had to do is reference it. They're like, Oh, yeah, I'm doing that. Right. You know what I mean? And it kind of puts them in check. And this is a reality check for them. But the fact of the matter is, I love working with people who will put up resistance. I mean, if you're teaching people, whether it's sales, marketing, whatever, to build a business the way they want to build it, like, no, like you said, there's many ways to get across town. And I wouldn't want somebody say yes, yes, yes, everything I'm saying if that's not really what they want to do, because I think that you'd like that I'm going to continue in those strategies. And we need to be working together. We're a team, right? You know, so I think that is just so important. And that's why, you know, we all have teams, but you're also a team member to your clients, you're on the same team. And there has to be great conversation there. That's where that trust is that they know, on both sides on both sides of that fence, they know that they come to us that you know, that thing that didn't really resonate with, you know, so we can look at something different. Fabulous, thank you so much for trusting me to tell me. And then on the other hand, when they're say they're not doing the things that they said that they would do, you know, they're not turning in their homework per se, you know, that it's okay for you to be able to say, well, you know, part of the reason that we're not getting here is because you said you would do this, this and this, and you know, I need you to actually step up and get those things done, or I'm not going to be able to deliver on what I said I would do. And then let's have a conversation about that. So I think that the know, like trust factor really goes both ways, and that you're on the same team. And so I love that when you're talking about clients, I also think that's how they will stay clients. And that's how they will refer other people to

Well, you're looking at it, if we do that critical question, what should I say? Or what should I do if you're not doing something you said you were going to do? When that situation arise and be found the road or whatever, and you have to have that conference conversation. It's not your words, it's theirs, they can't get mad at you. We're saying their own words, they gave us permission to do that. So it's a great way to have that conversation. Another thing too, it'll probably be my third book, because I'm starting a second one. But the principles in how to sell nothing, a logical way to make the emotional sale, make sure we have to sales, in order to get the next step is same thing is in leadership thing. Same thing with our clients. I started out just coaching and helping people with their personal production, I took all the principles on how to sell nothing, I can take the word out, sell and put the word lead in it works. Think about it. If we do the earning piece with a team member, that whole conversation works to dig in questions work, it works with our clients. It's the same conversation usually. And that's the now my sales is probably more generated towards sales leaders. But half my business is towards sales leaders from doing the same principles with a personal production. But now it's over here in leadership. It's the same thing when principle works over here. And that's fundamentally right and works. We can work it over here.

I love that because that's a great shift. So thinking about that, let's shift over kind of to, you know, I know that you also train top producers. So what's your approach to training top producers? And how do you ensure that they continue to grow without working harder? As you know for them, they don't want to work harder. They want to work smart.

Now, it's weird. It happened years ago when I first heard and I was just shocked when one of my clients said, Joe, if I make another 50 or 100 grand, it's not going to change by living and this is what I wasn't making any money. Like I want to be there someday. You know, it was like just an eye opener people like that really do exist. But it really shifted, where my coaching and what they're looking for, is they want to be a person of influence in someone else's life. They're looking for something else. That's the essence of my coaching. And if I continually doing that saying, Hey, how can I be involved? Can I help you? How can I be servant mentality of a servant selling mentality? That is the whole way with clients? It's not about me, it's not about their numbers, it's a lot of different things. And even when working with clients, um, maybe old school? Well, first things I do is I have them make a vision board. It's corny, it's dorky, it's weird.

Oh, and it's effective networks, you know, very effective, very, very effective. You know, I think it's effective. And it's important, because they need to actually keep you got to keep updating like your vision, because it changes, you know, at some point in time, you know, like, when you have kids and stuff, like, you know, there's things that you're doing, as you get a little older, or sometimes it shifts a little bit more to legacy, right, you know, we kind of shift a little bit more to legacy. But I have to tell you, Joe, I remember, I think I had been a seven figure earner for a few years. And I was really working hard. And I think it's like, I'd really stepped up my speaking, I was traveling a lot more. And I remember, like, one time I came home, and I was just tired. And I said to my husband, I need to figure out that I'm okay, with making half the money I'm making, if I only have to do half the work, right. But the fact of the matter is, that's not the math, the math isn't to make half the money, you only have to do half the work. I mean, I wish that math did work, but I didn't write. And really, it was an eye opener for me on what I really teach now, which is about I only do things that bring me joy, and feed my soul. Right. So that was kind of where I vase Ray needed to look at what I was doing, and deciding which things I wanted to continue to do. And so I had to pivot and shift a little bit. But I do think that what you're saying here is, it's really, really important to know, because sometimes you're just in a, I don't want to say a hustle, but you're making money. Like you know, like you said, if you're making $50,000. And you know, you've got third baby on the way and you know, or your kids are getting almost time you got to start thinking about putting him in college or whatever the case may be, you know, you're thinking a lot of times about money. And there's other times in our life, where maybe Money isn't the thing, like I'm not motivated by money, not to say, you know, it's not the motive, the driving motivator for me, I'm at a point in my life where I really care about making a difference. The right you know, and so, and there's nothing wrong with being motivated by money. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, as long as you do it the right way. It's the love of money, I think is where the problem happens, right. But I think that it is a mindset shift, though. It's a mindset shift. So let's kind of talk about shifting to a mindset of being okay with selling nothing, and how that can transform a salespersons approach. And the results. So whether you're a top producer, whether you're a salesperson, whether you're a team leader, shifting the mindset of being okay with selling nothing, how does that affect the bottom line?

Well, you look at it, doctors can't fix you until you tell them how or why you're not going to take the prescription. They're not they don't even know what to do. Let's apply that in sales. I can't sell anyone until they tell me how and why. And let's just go back to that earning because let's just say we are on a sales call. And it's old school, we're we recorded, we did a zoom or whatever. And I'm on my game, and I'm going through the earning process, step by step. And in between there, I'm sprinkling in dig in question after dig in question. And dig in question. We recorded that whole conversation. And then we came back. And we played it back. But we edited out my voice. We're left with my client, a prospect sitting there telling me what's important to them, why they want it what they want, and why they want it sell that to takes all the pressure off of selling, there is no selling um, it's easy. Most people want to sell what they want to sell. I think it's easier to sell what they want to buy versus sell when I want to sell absolute and that's the key piece. And that allows them to focus on those activities. You're talking about, you know, top producers, how do they get more? I've referenced a vision board and I think in terms of be doing half and I asked him to do that. When you put things on your vision board, think of the haves, those are the easy things. So it's okay. What do you want to do? That's a little bit harder, but who do you want to be? That's where I want to coach what type of role model you want to be to your daughters. What type of box you want to be that person one batch where I get the thing in the same thing is it's an emotional sale, that I'm working with my clients. It's happened it's not logical. How producers Do not need more logic. They need the emotionally.

I love that. So let's kind of talk a little bit about your book, How to sell nothing. Right? Like I said, I already said, I love the book. What would you say that it's, you know, there's a lot of books out there. And I want to say I tell people all the time, I'm not in the information business, I'm in the transformation business, Google's in the information business, right. And you know, and I know that, you know, that there's a lot of books out there, and they're very, very good. But reading one book, if you don't implement it is not going to do a thing for you, you really need to implement what you bring. So speaking about that, like I told you, I love your book, but what key insights from your book? Do you think that every salesperson should implement immediately to see results? Like, you know, you can do things that I tell my clients, you you do this, this and this, you will see results? But you got to do it? Right. So if they read your book, right, and hopefully, they're gonna listen to this podcast, because man, you have really dropped some value nuggets here, Joseph, thank you so much for that. But what could they implement immediately in order to be able to get results?

There's three things. First one, you mentioned the earning piece that is very transferable, doable, and it's very simple to do. And in that the two pieces of the earning repeat back what they just said, as I mentioned before, the other one, really key, what are the advantages? What do you like, about what you're currently doing? can't skip that step? Because that's what's gonna cause them to go for whatever they like, I got to have that. So those are the two pieces in the earning. The second is the dig in questions. It's just blows my mind sales. People think sales is icky. I don't like it and use car sales. If you're asking diggin questions, all that stuff goes away. If they sit there and told me what they want, why they're important. I mean, I just saw that. How confident I was. I actually

personally believe sales is service. If yes, sales is service, if you're doing it, right. Sales a service if you're doing it, right. So here's the thing. You know, one of the things that we hear all the time in sales is Oh, it's a numbers game. Right? It's a numbers game. Right? But I think it's, I'm not in the numbers business. I'm in the people business. Right, you know, and people do business with people. That's what I always like to say, right? So how do you measure success in sales? How would you say beyond the numbers, right? You know, what indicators show? Everybody's always talking about indicators, which are very, very important, right? Because you got to be able to track and measure. So what indicators should salespeople pay attention to? That will really reflect their true effectiveness? No, that's a toughy. No, it is.

But there's there's a lot of answers there. But I really think about it. It's new business coming in. If new clients new introductions, new it new business generates new business, and that's the fun stuff. I think everybody get most excited. First conversations, even the selling the first onboarding piece, that's a good indicator of how well you're doing. What's your new business like? And then the back piece is the communication. If I leave a message, how quick does it come back? That's another kind of E and key indicator within its goal based on a relationship can't quantify. We can quantify a new business. But the communication piece, you can't quantify that, but that's really the relationship. I mean, I'm confident with my clients, you are with us. Do you know the people you can call? And they'll What do you need for sure. And that's me, I'm doing things the right way.

You know, one of the things I say to people all the time, it doesn't matter how many phones your number is in? What matters is how many people will answer when you call

Or call back? Well, either one last Yeah, yeah.

That is really important. Yeah. So Joe, let's kind of look in the future. Right, you know, let's kind of look at the future. So what trends do you see shaping the future of sales? And how would you say professionals can stay ahead of the curve to remain competitive?

It's funny, because I'm just creating a module on this piece, because I'm seeing more and more. Before COVID We're all face to face, we got that COVID shifted everything we became virtual with that piece. I think we've gotten to a point where we're somewhat pretty good with the virtual piece. But I think we're missing a piece. And it's a key piece. When you had clients come in to see you. We had time we're establishing rapport, we're talking about the grandkids, the the lake, all those questions we asked about them. It really enhanced the relationship, we can do that. And we're good. And we've had most of our clients have been around for a while they've developed relationships with a really solid they have that stickiness. Well, when we're on Zoom, or virtual, it's on both sides of the camera. We want to have a little chitchat because we know we should, but we get down to business. We're missing that opportunity to really establish the relationship like we did before. At the same level, we touch on it, they want to get down to business, I want to get down to business, we do it and we get on. And I think our existing clients, we brought on rehab that we're going to retain those. But I think as we're bringing on new clients, I don't know if the relationships at the same level before we have to really be intentional about what we're doing with Zoom. And if we can, we have to push and try to get a face to face with them. Because your clients are actually at risk. If you've not established that relationship, those

Slides on the phone, I mean, at least on the phone, sometimes you really can't be in person, they may live in another country or whatever. But you but at least on the phone, and I do agree with you. Because I think that the people who have been my clients the longest I mean, I know about their kids, I know the name of their dog, I you know, I know when they're going on vacation, you know, like, you do have those things, too. And you're right. A lot of times, when people like you said in those coffee conversations, they want to get right to business. And you know, one of the ones that always cracks me up is when they say okay, so we're gonna have 30 minute call, and you're gonna get 15 minutes, and I'm gonna get 15 minutes. And that just cracks me up. Right? You know? So I always like to say, well, really? How many times have you? I know, this has happened to me in the past, where you would have a conversation with somebody. And before you even got on the call with him, you'd already checked him out that oh, man, they are sharp, like, you know, they would be like I agree, and then you get on the phone with them. And if you jump the gun too fast, later on, you're thinking yourself, man, I wish I'd had a better conversation with them. Because while their business model may mesh, industry wise, do they align with your vision and your beliefs, and all that kind of stuff. And you don't know that until you actually have a conversation about something that is not business, people are always going to project business. And I'm gonna give you a perfect example. I know, I keep going back to the networking world. So people say this to me all the time. And it cracks me up. When I say, Well, you know, who would you like me to introduce you to? or something of that nature? And they'll say, well, and we're in a networking arena, right? And they'll say, Well, I'd really like to introduce to somebody who's struggling with sales who's really having a hard time. And I just always stopped them. And I say, Well, how would I know that? And they're like, what? And I'm like, we're in a networking organization. And they're all given their elevator pitch. And they're all trying to get clients who in a networking organization would actually not a mastermind, like a mastermind, there are spaces for that. Right, right. But in a networking organization that people are paying for to get clients, are they going to stand up and say, something like, Man, I'm really struggling? I haven't had a client this past year, and some of my past clients have left. But what I'm looking for is to be introduced to somebody who's looking for I mean, come on, nobody's gonna share that information. So why are you asking me? Like somebody that's struggling with that? I wouldn't know that. Tell me something. I do know. Right? You know, so unless somebody has a good friend or, or something, people just don't go in public or get on Facebook and say, Oh, I'm really struggling with blah, blah, blah. So I think sometimes people don't ask the right questions, which is why I love your digging questions. And all of that, because I think people need to ask themselves, when would people give you that in formation? And so when you're putting that much pressure on somebody, to ask them to ask those questions for you? I mean, come on that does that isn't going to work? Right. So I think it is really, really important that if you're going to ask them that to ask me something that I actually may know, like, you know what I mean?

Alright, I'm gonna take what you said and look at the other side of the coin, because you're, you're you're spot on with that. And it's kind of another referral as cold call the ideal referral deal. And it's where I look at character traits, Joe, who should I work with? Who do you want to work with? Let's do character traits of people. I want to work with my ideal clients and people who are smart, but feel they don't have to prove it. They're they care about someone or something else, they have batteries included, they don't drain me. They're honest, or trustworthy, respectful of my time. Those are the people I want to get referred to. I take it away from everything else. I mean, a lot of times I'm struggling in sales. Let's go the other way. Because if we have those character traits, and that's a homerun for a client for me, if they have those traits, they're already probably successful. They're the ones I want to work with. But it's just asking what are the character traits of people. So whether you go to a networking group, that's a good way to hear the traits of people I like working with listed out. It's a cool list. It's a cool, cool way to do that.

I love that that is phenomenal. So Joe, you have been fabulous and generous as always, but I always like to ask my clients. Right. I always like to ask the people that are guests on my podcast. If you had to narrow down to one marketing medium, any strategy, what would that strategy be?

Actually it comes from the line of referrals. All we've talked about is getting them. But what really the thing is, is we have to get those referrals to have a conversation. And there's a piece that I coach on actually, it's a gift, it's a silver bullet from silver bullet referrals.com. But it's getting a silver bullet, every time I get a referral, silver bowl, I do not count referrals until I get a silver bullet, I will not count or call that person until I get a silver bullet. The silver bullet is basically something that I know that an average Joe on the street doesn't know. And what I want to do is draft off of their relationship on to my first voicemail phone call presentation. So silver bullet is something that I know that an average Joe on the street doesn't know. And I want to talk about that relationship.

That is perfect. And we're going to have the button below that you can just click on that and grab that because he has a gift for you. That is actually going to show you how to do that. So thank you so much, Joe, thank you so much for being here with me today. I appreciate you so much sharing so generously like you always do.

It has been a blast. And it's been like five minutes. It seems like we just talked for five minutes within an hour.

I know. So to the audience. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please like subscribe and review the podcast on your favorite listening platform. And make sure to subscribe to our magazine at www.m3Digitalmag.com. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, Joe for being here today. We'll see you all again next week.